Wait, I don't actually hate dieting since I enjoy getting into better shape...but I hate losing strength and losing size, especially when I am not stressed over how I look before dieting.
None of that changes the fact that I do want to diet down for the first time (as in, the first time working on being in any sort of "ripped" condition). I wanted to know what some of you have done in the past to get into lean condition (strategy, food intake, cardio regimen).
Obviously, this is aimed at those who are carrying a good deal of muscle and not those who are basically newbies who have never tried to maintain a large degree of muscle while dropping weight.
CT is who I would love to hear from on this.
I always find it hard to eat enough calories when dieting. It takes a large amount of calories just for me to maintain and when the goal is to clean that up more, it means I would have to eat a ridiculous amount of chicken breasts to compensate.
Join date: Oct 2002
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 4606
I detest dieting...with a passion. I try to eat clean most of the time, but if I want something, I'll eat it. Life's to short for self inflicted pain.
I find it hard to eat enough calories to not stay in a perpetually pissed off state. If I don't eat, I am angry. Also, losing strength adds to my anger issues. Finding the balance of eating enough to maintain hard training and still cut is a pain in the ass.
It is difficult to get enough calories when dieting, but that's why I tend to focus on macro nutrient amounts vs. calories when I suck it up and do it. Protein, fats, carbs, and whiskey.
I guess it depends on what your goals are. Contest prep complete with dehydration and paper thin skin are a different animal vs. Getting to 10% or lower body fat and gettin' good looking.
When I do trim, I up the protein and creatine. It's been a while though.I am no CT obviously, by any stretch, but I think getting most of your calories through protein the key to keeping the muscle.
I have too much stress right now to throw in maintaining a diet as well. So it will be a while longer before I subject myself to that.
Join date: May 2004
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 3936
Professor X wrote:
Obviously, this is aimed at those who are carrying a good deal of muscle and not those who are basically newbies who have never tried to maintain a large degree of muscle while dropping weight.
I have a feeling you're not going to get very many responses that fall in the category of people you would like to hear advice from.
Join date: Oct 2002
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 4606
malonetd wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Obviously, this is aimed at those who are carrying a good deal of muscle and not those who are basically newbies who have never tried to maintain a large degree of muscle while dropping weight.
I have a feeling you're not going to get very many responses that fall in the category of people you would like to hear advice from.
I wouldn't pretend I am giving Prof X, advise. Just my $.02. He is a seasoned vet. He knows what to do, it's discussion I like. We haven't had many good new ones lately.
Join date: May 2004
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 3936
pat wrote:
malonetd wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Obviously, this is aimed at those who are carrying a good deal of muscle and not those who are basically newbies who have never tried to maintain a large degree of muscle while dropping weight.
I have a feeling you're not going to get very many responses that fall in the category of people you would like to hear advice from.
I wouldn't pretend I am giving Prof X, advise. Just my $.02. He is a seasoned vet. He knows what to do, it's discussion I like. We haven't had many good new ones lately.
I didn't mean this as a shot at you at all. Sorry if I came off that way.
I just think there's probably only a small handful of people on this site that have any appreciable muscle mass AND dieted towards the low digits. I hope I'm wrong.
malonetd wrote:
pat wrote:
malonetd wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Obviously, this is aimed at those who are carrying a good deal of muscle and not those who are basically newbies who have never tried to maintain a large degree of muscle while dropping weight.
I have a feeling you're not going to get very many responses that fall in the category of people you would like to hear advice from.
I wouldn't pretend I am giving Prof X, advise. Just my $.02. He is a seasoned vet. He knows what to do, it's discussion I like. We haven't had many good new ones lately.
I didn't mean this as a shot at you at all. Sorry if I came off that way.
I just think there's probably only a small handful of people on this site that have any appreciable muscle mass AND dieted towards the low digits. I hope I'm wrong.
I think it's pretty pathetic that on a bodybuilding discussion forum...you can't find above average people to discuss dieting and building muscle with.
Join date: Apr 2008
Location: California, USA
Posts: 2253
Scott M wrote:
PX what are your thoughts on hiring a nutritionist to take care of the guess work when dieting down?
Watch out when hiring nutritionists...the certification to be one of those is waaaayyy too easy. You can do one of those online courses that allows you to complete it at your own time. Somebody could complete that in a month and be certified. If that's the case I'd trust the guys from the school of hard knocks...not bashing anybody who is a nutritionist, but make sure they know their stuff before you pay them to mess up. lol
On the other note, I've thought about hiring somebody to make my diets for me, but honestly they are just going by what works for the average person. They don't know my body and I think I'd be better off doing it myself. If they had the time to get to know how your body reacts to stuff then maybe...
Join date: Apr 2008
Location: California, USA
Posts: 2253
Scott M wrote:
I mean guys that get people into contest shape, not just some guy with a piece of paper saying he knows what the food groups are.
And obviously not some nobody... but a guy who has a reputation like Justin Harris for instance.
Oh yea definitely, if I had the opportunity to work with Justin Harris I'd do it in a heartbeat.
Then again I'm still comfortable with my knowledge of how my body works. I think that you have to spend a considerable amount of time with somebody so they can see how you respond to the macros before going on a certain diet.
Join date: Apr 2004
Location: New York, USA
Posts: 2059
X, I had a lot of success with Justin Harris' carb cycling over the summer. Now granted, that was to go from somewhere AROUND/upwards of 15% bf to probably about 12%, but I lost 17 lbs (please, if theres anybody out there who's about to tell me that 17 lbs lost doesnt add up with a 3% reduction in bf, those are ROUGH GUESSES) without feeling any strength loss, and losing about 2.5" off my waist, so it was coming from the right spot. It's pretty straightforward stuff, you can get a pretty good idea of it just from reading some of his earliest posts on the site (I think april 07 through th enext several months.) That's not to sell it short and say there isn't more to it, but that's another issue.
So anyway, yeah, i certainly wasnt ripped, but had I kept at it i very well possibly coulda kept up the rate of fat loss without any strength loss. Also, I know justin has recommended UPPING your sodium intake to ward off strength loss.
Hanley should chime in, I know he's dieted down and didnt loss much/any strength. Granted, he's weak as a kitten to start off with tho, but still...
KBCThird wrote:
X, I had a lot of success with Justin Harris' carb cycling over the summer. Now granted, that was to go from somewhere AROUND/upwards of 15% bf to probably about 12%, but I lost 17 lbs (please, if theres anybody out there who's about to tell me that 17 lbs lost doesnt add up with a 3% reduction in bf, those are ROUGH GUESSES) without feeling any strength loss, and losing about 2.5" off my waist, so it was coming from the right spot. It's pretty straightforward stuff, you can get a pretty good idea of it just from reading some of his earliest posts on the site (I think april 07 through th enext several months.) That's not to sell it short and say there isn't more to it, but that's another issue.
So anyway, yeah, i certainly wasnt ripped, but had I kept at it i very well possibly coulda kept up the rate of fat loss without any strength loss. Also, I know justin has recommended UPPING your sodium intake to ward off strength loss.
Hanley should chime in, I know he's dieted down and didnt loss much/any strength. Granted, he's weak as a kitten to start off with tho, but still...
I'll look into Harris, but I would rather discuss specific methods instead of discuss books to read.
Prof, do you already have your diet and workout plan in place? What is it?
I don't have an actual "plan" in place because I generally find that changes need to be made no matter what you do based on the results you see.
My strategy at this point is simply to begin in late November, start doing cardio daily at 30min in the mornings and over 3 weeks gradually increase that to two sessions a day for as long as my schedule permits.
I plan on keeping my protein intake pretty much the same as it is.
At this weight, all I have to do is cut one or two foods and my weight will drop immediately even without cardio.
My problem in the past has always been dealing with the loss in size. I like being big and I like being strong but walking around as ripped as possible is honestly not a concern for me...so when I lose fullness and strength I tend to not remain on a diet for too long.
I'm going to have to push past that though this time.
Join date: Feb 2008
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 126
I know this is a long response but here goes.
When I started dieting in January I weighed in at 215 at 5�??9�?? and about 18-20 % bf. I had about 24 weeks until the contest so I was looking to lose 1-2 lbs per week. For the first 8 weeks I did about 30 min 3x per week on the stairmaster and lifted 5-6 days per week. I was planning on doing my own diet at first and was going to do a keto diet so when I started my carbs where about 75-125 g per day my protein was at 275 g per and fat 80-100. I had about 2 cheat meals per week.
At 12 weeks out I weighed in at about 195-200 lbs about 13-15%bf. I decided I did not want to be in charge of my own diet. In the past I have done my own diets for shows and end up making unnecessary changes. A friend (Tony) who also trains people for shows said he would help me so I decided to leave everything in his hands. It is much easier when someone tells you whether you are on the right track or not.
Tony gave me my new diet and cardio plan. I was doing 60 minutes first thing in the morning with about 5 g BCAA�??s. My diet was now a bit different with 210g pro, 250g carb and about 50 g fat. I followed this for about 3 weeks then dropped carbs by 50g and increased fat about 8g.
At 10 weeks out I added in cardio 3x per week for 30 minutes in the evening diet stayed the same. At this point I had only lost about 20 lbs on my deadlift and squat. All my other lifts stayed the same. I weighed in about 192.
At 8 weeks out I increased my evening cardio to 45 minutes 5x per week. This sucked and was only going to get worse! Weight was 189-190.
Six weeks out and no more shakes at all. Up to this point I was only having Surge or waxy maise post workout but no more. My meals are all whole food now. This actually helped me to maintain my weight through the increased cardio which was now 7 mornings 60 minutes and 6 evenings at 60 minutes. Lifting stayed the same about 5-6 x per week. My weight was about 186-187. Carbs where at 150g per day now, fat about 70-75g and pro 210.
Four weeks out and cardio is now 60 minutes am and pm 7 days per week. My weight was about 183-184. Tony dropped my carbs to 75g per day for 5 days then a 300g load on the sixth day. On the low carbs days my fat was about 100g per day. I ate almost two jars of cashew butter a week. This brought my weight down to about 178-180 over the next three weeks.
The last week was a bit more involved. I ended up weighing in at 175 the night before the show and 180 the morning of. I maintained most of my strength until the last four weeks.
Throughout the dieting my pro came from eggs, egg whites, chicken, salmon, bison and steak. Carbs were oatmeal, brown rice and rice cakes. Fat was Flameout, peanut butter, cachew butter.
Join date: Apr 2008
Location: California, USA
Posts: 2253
Professor X wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
X, I had a lot of success with Justin Harris' carb cycling over the summer. Now granted, that was to go from somewhere AROUND/upwards of 15% bf to probably about 12%, but I lost 17 lbs (please, if theres anybody out there who's about to tell me that 17 lbs lost doesnt add up with a 3% reduction in bf, those are ROUGH GUESSES) without feeling any strength loss, and losing about 2.5" off my waist, so it was coming from the right spot. It's pretty straightforward stuff, you can get a pretty good idea of it just from reading some of his earliest posts on the site (I think april 07 through th enext several months.) That's not to sell it short and say there isn't more to it, but that's another issue.
So anyway, yeah, i certainly wasnt ripped, but had I kept at it i very well possibly coulda kept up the rate of fat loss without any strength loss. Also, I know justin has recommended UPPING your sodium intake to ward off strength loss.
Hanley should chime in, I know he's dieted down and didnt loss much/any strength. Granted, he's weak as a kitten to start off with tho, but still...
I'll look into Harris, but I would rather discuss specific methods instead of discuss books to read.
Carb cycling seems to be what you recommend.
I second carb cycling.
When I diet, if I screw up and don't eat enough I will burn too much muscle. At 6' tall I need to appear as full as possible on stage.
I tried the low/no carb approach with high fats for my very first show. I came in peeled but went from 195 to 176 1/4. I looked like a slightly muscled up abercrombie model and wasn't happy.
My second show was a failed attempt at the carb cycle, wrong foods, wrong training. Most things about this show just went wrong. It was only a few months after my first and I decided to come in heavier. I was somewhere between 185-190 and it was mostly just my body filling back out after a hard diet. I was holding water, my color was off, everything that could have gone wrong...did. I still got offered a bizillion photo shoots tho. lol
This last show, the pic in my avatar was from a carb cycle found on here by Thibs I believe. By keeping enough calories and carbs in I was able to actually gain through the show. I was just shy of 210 when I started my 4 week diet and after that and the diuretic I made the 196lb light heavy mark. Carb loaded after weigh ins and was probably a few lbs over 200 on stage.
My dieting isn't so hard because I stay really lean year round. The weight I put on is usually muscle. I feel I can get close to the 4-5% bodyfat range onstage, and in my offseason I may be 8-10% at the most. (those aren't exact, just guesses) So I don't have to fear losing too much muscle because I don't diet for too long.
My problem is somewhat like you mentioned, I miss a couple meals or drop the calories too low and I can almost wake up the next morning and flip out because I've dropped too much weight.
Join date: Jun 2004
Location: California, USA
Posts: 3394
I actually didnt mind it at all. I enjoyed the challenge of it. What does it take to get to that level? Can I do it? Do I have what it takes? Hopefully you can find out these answers on your own.
I'll just add in my little experience, and some of the knowledge from a BBer at my gym:
1 - Its hard... Like, really hard. Some people may be able to do it by just dropping the carbs and calories, but most wont.
2 - Cardio is key. I had neglected cardio for most of my diet and was way behind where I needed to be I think. By the end of the diet (last 4 weeks) I was doing about 10 hours of cardio a week. Maybe more. The BBer at my gym (competed at 5'6" 215 pounds shredded, currently weights 265) also was doing upwards up 2 cardio sessions and a weights session every day of the week leading up to his contest.
3 - The grind. You just have to do it. Wake up, cardio, eat (sometimes the same food every day just to take the guesswork out), workout, cardio, repeat. Know its temporary. Know its just to get to a goal. Know it will be over soon.
4 - I found that low carb diets work great for my body, with a cheat day one day a week. This is a pseudo carb cycling I guess(One high carb day a week), so throw my hat into that ring.
Join date: Apr 2004
Location: New York, USA
Posts: 2059
Professor X wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
X, I had a lot of success with Justin Harris' carb cycling over the summer. Now granted, that was to go from somewhere AROUND/upwards of 15% bf to probably about 12%, but I lost 17 lbs (please, if theres anybody out there who's about to tell me that 17 lbs lost doesnt add up with a 3% reduction in bf, those are ROUGH GUESSES) without feeling any strength loss, and losing about 2.5" off my waist, so it was coming from the right spot. It's pretty straightforward stuff, you can get a pretty good idea of it just from reading some of his earliest posts on the site (I think april 07 through th enext several months.) That's not to sell it short and say there isn't more to it, but that's another issue.
So anyway, yeah, i certainly wasnt ripped, but had I kept at it i very well possibly coulda kept up the rate of fat loss without any strength loss. Also, I know justin has recommended UPPING your sodium intake to ward off strength loss.
Hanley should chime in, I know he's dieted down and didnt loss much/any strength. Granted, he's weak as a kitten to start off with tho, but still...
I'll look into Harris, but I would rather discuss specific methods instead of discuss books to read.
Carb cycling seems to be what you recommend.
No books to read, just what i figured out from posts of his. The very short version are that there are three types of days - low carb, medium, high. High carb days = 2-3g/lb of bw, 1 g protein, medium = 1 g carb, 1.25 g pro, low = .5 g carb, 1.5 g pro; I forget the g of fat per day, but they vary directly with the protein and indirectly with the carbs.
VERY important to note tho is that the sources of carbs are supposed to be as clean as possible, so harris mostly recommends rice, potatoes and oatmeal. On High days 50% of the carb intake can be sugar, I think
This is what i remember off the top of my head, and theres more to it, so if anyone wants to correct or add to it, jump in
