Behind the Scenes
ZMA vs. Andro—Interview With Victor Conte
by Tim Patterson
I'm totally committed to training! I admit it; I'm hooked—forever! Over the last 25 years, I bet I've spent close to 5,000 hours in the gym workin' hard. I've done just about everything in the name of "training science," too. It's a wonder I survived some of my escapades. I've pushed myself—in torrid exercise experiments—to the point of shock, clinical hypothermia, unconsciousness, dehydration, and hypoxia. I've had the "privilege" to nearly hit cardiac fibrillation!
All of these "fond" memories remind me of the time when I was doing heavy squats in my second-floor apartment (not the smartest thing I've ever done). I had 400 pounds on the bar and on my second rep I started losing my balance and began teetering forward. There I was, stuck...trying to pull myself back from the brink of disaster. The more I fought, the worse it got.
As unbelievable as it seems, I managed to strain—right before the crash—into a flexed "good morning" position with a 400-pound guillotine (bar) on my neck. My training partner, Tom, was quite animated over the event, excited even, kinda' like a kid watching the cops work a freeway pile-up. He didn't know whether to stop-n-stare or call 911. So he did the next-best thing...
Tom tried to hoist me off the ground with a "power" heimlich maneuver. Of course, his efforts weren't effective. And we—Tom, the 400 pounds, and me—went, like some massive cow orgy, head-over-heels down...crashing through the sub-floor, stopping just as the barbell plates creased the ceiling in the apartment below...
We all have lots of "great" memories from the training sessions we've been through, which shows—in some twisted way—the level of commitment we have toward building our "ideal" body. For some of us (including me), we'll do just about anything to add a couple more pounds of muscle. But as we all know, if you're not careful in your zest, you can screw things up and actually lose mass—a price that's just way too much to pay.
If you can prevent these setbacks (muscle/strength losses) from occurring, I believe it'd be the single most important factor in helping you reach your bodybuilding goals!
And if you want to continue "building," you have to get (and keep) the body in an anabolic state. Without this super-physiologic condition, you're goin' nowhere. Even though the ultimate anabolic weapon is modern, scientific strength training, strength training can only take you so far. The rest of the way must come from diet, rest and recovery, and anabolic aids.
A lot of bodybuilders have tried prohormones, hoping they've found a real, but legal, anabolic steroid that's safe. But stories are beginning to surface that indicate andro supplements are anything but effective and safe. Andro users, showing symptoms of elevated DHT, estrogen, and blunted endogenous testosterone, are fairly widespread. In fact, each week I receive several emails from readers who are experiencing severe to complete androgen shutdown (click here to read some of these emails). These guys are terrified!
Even most of the researchers involved with prohormones are now skeptical about their ergogenic benefits. And none of the ones I know will take any of the andro products. It's not because they believe that andro's too powerful—no, not at all! The muscular science "brains" I spoke with are convinced that it's impossible to create a super-physiologic anabolic state with prohormones. In fact, you get the exact opposite effect; you actually create a super-physiologic catabolic state!
One of my goals in BTS is to give you anabolic alternatives to prohormones that really work! It's not that I'm necessarily "anti-prohormone." It's just that none of us knows very much about their side effects. And based on the emails and research "leaks" I've been getting, I'd say that the andro products are doing more harm than good. The good news, though, is that there are alternatives out there.
Remember, "anabolic" refers to a metabolic state of increased protein synthesis. This simply means that you've increased the body's ability to incorporate protein into lean mass. You can do this in several ways, too. It's not just limited to steroids. In fact, the ergogenic dream for every bodybuilder is to find the ultimate anabolic compound that has zero androgenic activity.
Now, what I'm going to say next might sound like a self-serving, smarmy promotion for Tribex, but it's important and I'm gonna' say it. So please focus on the principles of my discussion and not the fact that we sell Tribex.
My objective in formulating Tribex-500 was to design an anabolic agent that wasn't based directly on androgens. From my experience with steroids, I knew that androgens could be effective, but you had to be smart about how you used them. In other words, if you don't know what you're doing with steroids or prohormones, you'll end up worse off than you were before you tried them. Furthermore, I knew that I could get my own testosterone levels (both free and total T) into the "high normal" range without the use of any androgens.
Taking nothing but Tribex, I've been able to get my testosterone levels to 1,016 ng/dl. Average for healthy strength athletes is about 450-550 ng/dl. And on very rare occasions, you'll see someone naturally going over 1,000 ng/dl. With Tribex, I've seen increases in testosterone range between 30% and 110%, with the average being around 70%. Of course, like all other drugs and supplements, there are a few individuals who won't find Tribex effective. But their numbers are few.
I'm convinced that by combining herbs, flavones, and other compounds, you can create a safe and very effective anabolic agent. In addition to Tribex-500, I believe there are probably several other powerful anabolic compounds that are actually "safe" to take. Now I'm not claiming that we can "mimic" the effects of Deca or Test, but I am saying that you can get a significant anabolic boost!
One such compound that I've written about in previous articles is ZMA. ZMA is a special blend of zinc and magnesium that has proven anabolic properties. It's amazing that just two common minerals, when "tweaked" a bit, can turn into ergogenic rockets. Victor Conte, the inventor of ZMA, has really done his homework, too. I've never seen this guy lose when it comes to debating the facts about minerals and their effects on human performance.
Recently, I spoke with Victor Conte about how ZMA would stack up against Andro, sorta' like the ""two men enter, one man leaves" scene from "Mad Max."
ZMA vs. Andro, which one will survive? Well, here's how the conversation went:
TP: Victor, the study that started all the hype about andro products showed that androstenedione and androstenediol appear to cause a "rapid spike" in testosterone levels, which seem to peak in 60 to 90 minutes. Is the testosterone elevation significant enough, or long enough, to cause an increase in protein synthesis?
VC: I don't think anybody in the scientific community knows what a "rapid spike" in testosterone levels means to the body. In the only andro study ever conducted and presented by Dr. Tim Ziegenfuss at Eastern Michigan University, serum testosterone levels were measured in seven untrained subjects at 0, 30, 60 and 90 minutes following the ingestion of placebo, 100 mg androstenedione or 100 mg of Androdiol.
Relative to placebo, androstenedione ingestion caused a 14.8% increase in total testosterone at 90 minutes, while Androdiol caused a 47.7% increase at 90 minutes. Once again, nobody knows whether these quick spike—3 hours or less, I presume—increases in testosterone levels will cause any type of performance enhancement without causing adverse health effects. The efficacy of "andro" supplements will remain unknown until they've been studied more extensively utilizing valid research protocols.
TP: So, this study doesn't mean all that much to the strength athlete or bodybuilder, does it?
VC: Well, at this time, there's just no evidence that the acute increases in testosterone caused by "andro" supplements will result in significant increases in protein synthesis or greater strength and/or size gains. My guess is that any beneficial effects would be minimal and the magnitude of the risks are unknown.
I called and asked Dr. Richard Horton, Chief of the Division of Endocrinology at the USC School of Medicine about Dr. Ziegenfuss' prohormone research. In particular, I asked him what conclusions could be made about andro's ability to increase protein synthesis. Dr. Horton is a "world renowned" anabolic hormone expert who has published hundreds of scientific studies. He said, "At this time nobody in the scientific community knows what this research means!" I then called Dr. Ziegenfuss and told him what Dr. Horton had said. Dr. Ziegenfuss said that he agreed with Dr. Horton!
It amazes me that companies mass market prohormones—based on a single study—when nobody in the scientific community really knows the meaning or the implications of the results.
TP: I'm getting a lot of emails from readers who are showing side effects from taking andro supplements, like male-pattern baldness and gynocomastia. I know the science community is worried about the dangers as well. These symptoms are a direct result from increased DHT and/or estrogen. Is it because anything that increases testosterone increases levels of DHT and/or estrogen, or is it because some of the andros are being converted directly to these compounds?
VC: My understanding is that androstenedione can readily convert directly to DHT, which is linked to undesirable conditions such as male pattern baldness and prostatic hypertrophy. A percentage of androstenedione is also converted directly to estrogen. As a result, there are a growing number of anecdotal reports of mild gynecomastia—"bitch tits"—associated with androstenedione usage. In short, it's now become apparent that significant health problems can occur as a result of using androstenedione supplements.
To summarize, anything that increases testosterone levels may possibly cause an increase in DHT and/or estrogen levels because a percentage of testosterone is converted to both of these compounds.
TP: Let's take this to the extreme, just of for the sake of argument. If elevating testosterone levels produces undesirable effects, such as increased DHT or aromatization to estrogen, wouldn't intense exercise, which also raises testosterone levels, have potential adverse health effects?
VC: First of all, it's a widely held misconception that exercise increases testosterone levels. In fact, prolonged exercise decreases the production of testosterone by approximately 10%.1 Many studies have reported post-exercise increases in serum testosterone levels, however, what they're measuring is only a false elevation. This is because exercise causes significant decreases in hepatic plasma flow and the metabolic clearance rate of testosterone. This is why it's extremely important to measure testosterone levels in a rested state during the early morning as opposed to post exercise.
I often use the following analogy to explain the effect of exercise on testosterone levels. Imagine that there's a hose bringing testosterone into a bathtub, which represents testosterone production, and you decrease the flow of the hose by 10%, which represents the effects of exercise. If you restrict the drain flow at the same time by 30%—a reduction in metabolic clearance rate of testosterone—the level of testosterone will appear to be increased. However, this is only a very short-term effect and clearly represents a false elevation.
In addition, research has shown that prolonged physical exercise decreases not only the levels of testosterone, but also the levels of DHT.2 So, it's not likely that intense exercise will cause adverse side effects associated with DHT elevation.
TP: Okay, so how does ZMA compare to the popular andro supplements that are so widely used today?
VC: Well, the main difference is that ZMA has been scientifically proven to significantly increase anabolic hormone levels as well as strength and power in athletes. An independent study of ZMA was recently conducted at Western Washington University under the direction of sports performance researcher, Lorrie Brilla, PhD.3
A group of 12 competitive NCAA football players who took ZMA nightly during an 8 week spring training program had 30% increases in free and total testosterone levels compared to 10% decreases in the placebo group of 15. The ZMA group also had a slight increase in IGF-1 levels compared to a 20% decrease in the placebo group.
The subjects pre-post blood samples were collected during the early morning in a fasted, non-exercised state. Early morning blood specimens were collected because testosterone levels are at their peak during this time of the day and decrease throughout the day by 25% to an evening minimum.4
Exercise was restricted before the blood collections because exercise falsely elevates testosterone levels by 25%.1 ZMA supplementation was administered daily for a period of 60 days and then post supplementation blood data was collected following the exact protocol used at baseline.
So, you can see that this was a well-designed study, and this is a more scientifically valid protocol in contrast to "rapid spike" testosterone measurements. The ZMA study conducted by Dr. Brilla provides a pre-post comparison that represents a 24 hour average increase in the circulating levels of anabolic hormones in strength trained athletes.
Comparing the ZMA study data with the "andro" study data is like comparing apples to grapes. The ZMA study showed a 24 hour average increase in the circulating levels of testosterone in trained athletes, compared to the "andro" study, which showed only a "quick spike"—three hours or less—increase in the testosterone levels of untrained subjects.
To the best of my knowledge, ZMA is the only all natural product that has been clinically proven to increase anabolic hormone levels in trained athletes.
TP: Did Dr. Brilla's study provide evidence that supplementation with ZMA improves athletic performance by increasing muscle mass, strength, and power, etc.?
VC: Yes! In addition to measuring the anabolic hormone increases in the football players, Dr. Brilla measured their muscle strength and functional power increases. Pre and post leg strength and power measurements were made using a Biodex isokinetic dynamometer. The players who took ZMA nightly during the 8 week period of intensive training had 2.5 times greater strength gains than the placebo group.
The strength of the ZMA group increased 11.6% compared to a 4.6% increase in the placebo group. The ZMA group also had two times greater functional power gains compared to the placebo group. The functional power of the ZMA group increased 18.2%, in contrast to 9.4% for the placebo group.
The study results were presented by Dr. Brilla on November 14, 1998 at the 18th Annual Meeting of the Southwest Chapter of the American College of Sports Medicine in Las Vegas. The abstract is entitled "A Novel Zinc and Magnesium Formulation (ZMA) Increases Anabolic Hormones and Strength In Athletes" and will be published in the Sports Medicine, Training and Rehabilitation Journal (in press).
I think these independent university study results clearly demonstrate the efficacy of ZMA for athletic performance enhancement.
TP: Are there additional studies which provide evidence that ZMA is effective?
VC: There are a number of studies showing that the ingredients in ZMA may boost testosterone levels, increase strength, etc. The recent ZMA study confirms and extends a rather significant body of peer-reviewed, published literature.
For example, in 1992, Dr. Brilla published a study in which peak quadricep torque (leg press) measurements were made before and after a 7-week strength training program. The strength of the magnesium supplemented group significantly increased by 26%, compared to only 10% for the placebo group.5
In another example, in a double-blind cross-over study called "Zinc and Muscle Strength and Endurance," therapeutic administration of zinc for 14 days significantly improved leg strength and endurance in women.6
I've known about the connection between zinc and the anabolic hormones for more than 15 years now. In a study published back in 1982, kidney failure patients, who are typically zinc deficient, were supplemented with zinc for a period of six months, and their testosterone levels increased by 85%.7
In addition to its effects on testosterone, zinc supplementation may increase growth hormone and insulin-like growth factor-1 levels. Yet another study published in 1996... think it was called called "Zinc Supplementation Increases Growth and Circulating Insulin-Like Growth Factor I (IGF-I) in Growth-Retarded Vietnamese Children," the zinc treated children's IGF-I levels increased by 47% after 1 month and 70% after 5 months of supplementation.8
TP: Victor, I know that your product actually raises testosterone levels, and that product—ZMA—is essentially a combination of zinc and magnesium. Are you implying that most people are deficient in these minerals?
VC: Zinc and magnesium deficiencies are common in the general population and even more prevalent in athletes. Through an extensive search of worldwide medical research data, we discovered that rigorous exercise and stress results in significant bodily losses of zinc and magnesium.
For example, in a study called "Serum Zinc in Athletes in Training," serum zinc was determined in 160 training athletes—103 males and 57 females. In 23.3% of the males and 43% of the female athletes, serum zinc was significantly below the "normal range."9
Please understand that a normal "two standard deviation" range represents the center 95 out of 100 hundred healthy people. This means that only 2.5 people out of every 100 (2.5%) should be below this normal range.
In addition, in a study called "Biochemical Indices of Selected Trace Minerals in Men: Effect of Stress," blood (plasma) levels of zinc and other trace minerals were determined in 66 men before and after a 5 day period of sustained physical and psychological stress. Zinc levels decreased by 33%!10
In another study called "Magnesium, Zinc and Copper status of 270 US Navy Sea, Air and Land (SEAL) trainees" conducted by the US Department of Military Medicine, it was shown that the blood concentrations of magnesium and zinc were significantly below the "normal range" for 23% and 24% of the trainees, respectively.11
Furthermore, in 1998, we tested the mineral status of over 250 NFL players, including the entire Denver Broncos Super Bowl championship team, as well as the entire Miami Dolphin team. Over 70% of the players were either depleted (one standard deviation below the mean) or deficient (two standard deviations below the mean) in both zinc and magnesium.
The football players in the ZMA study also had reduced baseline blood levels of both zinc and magnesium. However, eight weeks of ZMA supplementation was very effective in optimizing their levels of these elements, which resulted in dramatic increases in the anabolic hormone levels and strength of the athletes.
TP: Don't we get plenty of zinc and magnesium in common food?
VC: The main reason for baseline deficiencies in the both the general population and in serious athletes is that it's difficult to get proper amounts solely through the intake of whole foods. USDA studies show that 68% of self-selected diets contain less than two thirds of the RDA for zinc12 and 39% contain less than two-thirds of the RDA for magnesium.13
While zinc and magnesium are contained in a wide variety of foods, it's been my experience that athletes don't acquire sufficient quantities through their normal diets. One reason may be that foods high in these minerals aren't necessarily the most desirable. For example, the best food sources for zinc include oysters and beef liver. These foods just aren't consumed by most athletes, nor should they be.
TP: We've mostly talked about the effects of increased testosterone, which as I understand it, comes from the zinc in ZMA. What are some of the benefits from the magnesium?
VC: In addition to significant strength increases found in the magnesium study conducted in 1992 by Dr. Brilla that I mentioned earlier, there's one other magnesium study that I'd like to briefly tell you about.
The study—if I remember correctly—was called "Plasma aldosterone, cortisol and electrolyte concentrations in physical exercise after magnesium supplementation."14 Nine healthy, male subjects (18-40 years) were supplemented daily with 365 mg of magnesium as aspartate for 14 days. Before and after the supplementation period each subject performed a rigorously identical one-hour ergometer exercise.
The magnesium supplementation significantly reduced the subjects plasma levels of the catabolic "stress" hormone cortisol by an average of 25% (P < 0.025), which remained decreased throughout the entire exercise period. The magnesium supplementation also significantly lowered the subjects' heart rates throughout the exercise period by an average of 8% (P < 0.03).
TP: Since ZMA is not an androgen, can or should women use it?
VC: Absolutely, ZMA is a very effective product for women. In a study involving nationally ranked elite bodybuilders, eleven female bodybuilders were found to consume an average of 9 mg of zinc per day. This is only 76% of the RDA for zinc, which is 12 mg per day.15 The recommended dosage of ZMA for women contains 20 mg of elemental zinc. This is a more appropriate dosage for women athletes, because rigorous exercise causes greater bodily losses of zinc through sweat and urine.
As previously mentioned, a study called "Zinc and Muscle Strength and Endurance" found that therapeutic administration of zinc for 14 days significantly improved leg strength and endurance in women.6
In addition, women with premenstrual syndrome (PMS) may benefit from ZMA, because it contains a bioavailable form of magnesium. Research shows that women with PMS were found to have 32% lower levels of red blood cell magnesium compared to controls.16
Similarly, women who received magnesium supplementation for 2 months reported a significant reduction in cluster "pain" and "mood changes" during their menstrual cycles.17
TP: Okay, we have a lot of teenage bodybuilders reading Testosterone, how about them?
VC: I think it's a great idea for young men to take an appropriate daily dosage of ZMA. The RDA for zinc for males 11 years and up is 15 mg per day. Two capsules of ZMA contain 20 mg of zinc and 300 mg of magnesium, which would be appropriate dosages for young men 13 to 18 years of age.
An interesting double-blind study was conducted called "Zinc Supplementation Increases Growth Velocity of Male Children and Adolescents with Short Stature."18 The subjects were given 10 mg of zinc per day or a placebo for a period of 12 months.
The male adolescents in the zinc supplemented group had a significantly greater increase in stature compared with the placebo group (8.3 versus 6.2 cm/year, P <0.025). In summary, the zinc group had a 34% greater increase in height compared to the placebo group over a 12-month period.
TP: "Baby-Boom" males and "andropause" is getting a lot of attention. I know ZMA works well with young, big buffed studs, what about men over 40?
VC: There was an excellent study published in 1996 by Amanda S. Parsed that found that 30 mg per day of zinc supplementation in healthy elderly American men—who were experiencing moderate zinc deficiencies—doubled (8.3 to 16.0 nmol/L, P <0.02) their serum testosterone levels in six months!19
Similarly, in another study of healthy elderly subjects in Detroit, approximately 30% had a marginal deficiency of zinc.20 In normal men, serum testosterone concentrations decrease with age primarily as a result of decreased testicular secretion.21
It seems possible that the age-related decrease in serum testosterone could, in part, be secondary to a marginal deficiency of zinc. I'd like to point out that the recommended dosage of ZMA for adult males contains 30 mg of zinc, which is the same dosage that was used in the Prasad study.
TP: You've sold me on zinc and magnesium, and I want to run out to GNC and get both minerals. Which brands do you recommend?
VC: That's a very difficult question, but I'll do my best to provide general information that will assist you and other people in purchasing mineral supplements.
First of all, most of the mineral supplements on the market contain a calcium based filler, either calcium sulphate or dicalcium phosphate, which will significantly reduce the absorption of both zinc and magnesium. The filler is sometimes listed on the label, but not very often.
Most of the mineral supplements on the market are not well absorbed. In general, the oxides, gluconates and sulphates are the forms with the lowest rates of absorption. The methionines, aspartates and glycinates are the forms with the highest rates of absorption.
It's very important not to take too high a dosage of zinc, though. There are several studies showing that 50 mg of zinc per day will reduce copper levels, HDL cholesterol levels, and even lower super oxide dismutase (SOD) levels in as little as 14 days. For those that don't know, SOD is a very important antioxidant enzyme.
ZMA is not a simple mineral formulation, as you might expect. It's not about blending individual ingredients. ZMA is manufactured using a proprietary process in which some of the zinc and magnesium molecules are double bonded together with the same aspartic acid molecules using a special organic acid formula. This enables both elements to be transported together to the back portion of the small intestine, where they can be absorbed and enter the blood stream at the same time. This enables the two elements to have the desired synergistic effect.
There are a lot of other proprietary aspects, but I've said more than I want to already. I'm sure that positive results, though probably not equivalent to ZMA, could be obtained using a combination of bioavailable forms of zinc and magnesium, plus vitamin B-6.
In addition, you'd have to be careful not to take too high of a dosage of vitamin B-6. ZMA is designed to be taken just before bedtime and a large dose of vitamin B-6 before bed will make it difficult to sleep. ZMA, however, is a very effective sleep aid. A lot of people fail to realize how important it is to get a deep and restful sleep. When you get a deep and restful sleep, it accelerates healing, recovery, regeneration, tissue repair and growth!
TP: Most athletes take a daily multiple vitamin/mineral supplement, don't we get the additional zinc and magnesium that we need from this source?
VC: Absolutely not! In a study called "The effect of 7 to 8 months of vitamin/mineral supplementation on the vitamin and mineral status of athletes," blood indicators of eight vitamins (B1, B2, B6C, E, E, AB12, folate) and six minerals (Cu, Mg, Zn, Ca, P) were measured in 86 athletes before and after a 7-to 8 month period of training.22
During this period, half consumed a multi-vitamin/mineral supplement and a matched group took a placebo. Following the supplementation period, blood indicators of B1, B6, B12 and folate status all increased, but there were no effects of supplementation on the blood levels of any of the minerals. Zero effect! This is because of the competitive and antagonistic interactions that prevented absorption.
The authors concluded that 7 to 8 months of multi-vitamin/mineral supplementation did not effect any of the blood mineral levels.
A similar study looked at athletes who ingested a multiple vitamin supplement for 3 months. During this period there were no significant changes in the blood concentrations of any of the vitamins, minerals or trace elements measured.23
The authors stated "This may have been due to the variable interactions between the vitamins and minerals that prevented their being adequately absorbed."
I think they're right on the mark.
TP: So, now that you've convinced me that there's a reason to buy ZMA over the ordinary forms of zinc and magnesium, what's the price? I bet you're gonna' stick it to me, right?
VC: ZMA is the lowest cost, scientifically-based sports nutrition product on the market! Retailers sell ZMA for somewhere between twenty and twenty-five dollars for a month supply! You could possibly go out and buy the individual components on your own and save a few dollars, but I'm almost positive that you wouldn't get the same effects as you would with ZMA.
TP: So as a summary, why don't you give a "point by point" comparison of the ZMA and "andro" research?
VC: Hmmm, let me think about that for a minute... Well, the ZMA study involved trained athletes—NCAA football players. The only presented andro study used untrained subjects.
The ZMA study was a randomized, double-blind, placebo controlled design. The andro study was not blinded and didn't have a placebo or control group.
The ZMA study showed a significant increase in the 24-hour average circulating levels of free and total testosterone as well as IGF-1 levels. The andro study showed only a "rapid spike" increase in free and total testosterone levels, and nobody in the scientific community really knows what the significance of that is.
The ZMA study showed a significant increase in the muscle strength and functional power of already trained athletes. The andro study didn't include any type of performance enhancement data.
It's quite obvious that the ZMA study design was much more comprehensive than the andro study design and that the ZMA study data is much more valid and meaningful!
In conclusion, I'd like to state that ZMA has two very important advantages over the andro supplements. First, ZMA doesn't need to be cycled, because ZMA doesn't suppress the endogenous production of testosterone. ZMA may be taken on a continuous basis, while andro proponents suggest that it be cycled.
In addition, there are no studies reporting adverse health effects at the moderate dosages of zinc and magnesium contained in ZMA.
Lastly, many questions still remain to be answered regarding andro supplements, such as, how long will endogenous testosterone production be suppressed after an andro cycle? For as long as the cycle? Maybe longer? Does anyone know? Will the suppressed endogenous testosterone production after an andro cycle completely negate the possible positive benefits, if there are any?
These are very important questions about andro supplements that still remain to be answered!
If you're not already taking ZMA, I highly recommend it. ZMA's one of those supplements that really works! And it's fairly inexpensive, too. So if you're interested and want to order some ZMA, give SNAC Systems (Victor Conte's company) a call at 800-697-2086. Victor offers a 100% money-back guarantee.
(If you live outside the US, call 650-697-2086).
If you've got something to say, or a question burning a hole in your mind, just
click here and send it our way. Good or bad, favorable or not, we'll publish the best right here in this column.
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